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Vivian Vague
Well, there is one last situation more severe than any covered so far.

Jack Practicvs
Let me guess: pregnancy as a result of rape.

Vivian Vague
So what do you think? Shouldn't abortion be allowed then?

Jack Practicvs
Well, what do you mean by rape?

Vivian Vague
Well, I suppose it would be forced penetration, without consent obviously.

Jack Practicvs
What do you mean by 'forced'?

Vivian Vague
Aren't we getting sidetracked here?

Jack Practicvs
Maybe. Might as well be thorough.

Vivian Vague
I suppose, we've come this far. Anyway, to answer your question, when I said 'forced' I meant physically and without consent. But now that you've asked, I suppose it could involve other kinds of coercion and manipulation. Just what are you thinking?

Jack Practicvs
Which Commandments would you say the act of rape breaks?

Vivian Vague
Well, the first one, obviously; and the 'Do-not-covet' one because it involves coveting; 'Do not commit adultery' because it is an act of impurity and 'Do not murder' because it is an act of violence against someone else.

Jack Practicvs
Sounds right to me. Given your answers, it sounds like you know that the Commandments are not only telling us not to do what is specifically written.

Vivian Vague
That's right. It's the thought that counts as well, we shouldn't even think it. In fact, to fulfil the Commandments, we should do the good, and not just not do the bad. For example, part of not committing adultery would be to remain pure in one's mind as well as behavior and to encourage purity in others.

Jack Practicvs
Ok, keeping what you just said in mind and that by 'forced' it could include manipulation, what would you say regarding the general behavior of people nowadays?

Vivian Vague
I think I know where you are going with this.

Jack Practicvs
Would you say manipulation includes seduction and temptation?

Vivian Vague
Yes.

Jack Practicvs
So - and I am being general here - don't you think the way people act, they are continuously 'raping' each other almost every moment of everyday? For example, look at the way people behave and dress.

Vivian Vague
Hmm...

Jack Practicvs
I mean, look at that guy over there [Jack looks over to a young man and a young woman sitting nearby, Vivan Vague looks also]: he's wearing a tight pink T-shirt, something wrong with that in itself, showing off his muscles and chatting up that girl. She is barely covered and even from here I can tell she's deliberately acting like a bimbo, leading him on, and he in turn plays along.

Vivian Vague
Are you using this example to blame women for getting raped?

Jack Practicvs
I knew you were gonna say that; and no, I wouldn't put it so crudely and simply. I don't know who started it and either way, there's excuse for anyone either way. In almost all cases, given what goes on everyday, I think there is culpability on both sides to varying degrees according to case. Those two are certainly playing along. Can you see them ending well?

Vivian Vague
I suppose men are generally more overt in their methods whereas women are generally more subtle but both are just as bad.

Jack Practicvs
Well, whether it's the man or the woman, one is guilty of the tempting and the other is guilty of falling for it. But even that's too simple. Often, it's both as I think both sides play along with each other's stupid game.

Vivian Vague
Like you said, that's probably the case most of the time.

Jack Practicvs
And even in cases where someone is being forced in a more overt manner, I wonder if it could have been avoided. Not to excuse the rapist or belittle their culpability in any way but I wonder if some victims went along with it out of fear or false human respect as well. Maybe they resisted at first but then later went along with it?

Vivian Vague
You mean like some date rapes? Like when a guy manipulates his female friend into feeling sorry for him and so on?

Jack Practicvs
Yeah, something like that. We could go on forever commenting on the subjective and relative culpability all day.

Vivian Vague
Well, I suppose both are to blame and nothing either one does excuses the other. But getting to the abortion thing, how does all this fit in? I mean it's good we've considered all this but...

Jack Practicvs
Well, it goes back to what we've already covered earlier, that people are selfish and self-centred and they want fun divorced from responsibility. They have no regard for human dignity. They treat each like sex toys with a pulse and the baby is just a mere consequence, an inconvenience to be discarded. In many cases, the only one I feel sorry for is the baby. Of course the baby should be kept but where do you start with some of these people? They're just nuts.

Vivian Vague
Well, let's consider a simple case of rape where the rapist - let's assume it's a man - is totally to blame and the woman has done absolutely nothing wrong. And regardless of culpability, there's still the baby to deal with. Would abortion be allowed then?

Jack Practicvs
As hard as it is, I have to say no, because the child is an innocent. We can't blame the child. It would make more sense for the man who committed this horrible crime to pay and make reparation for the rest of his life by providing for the woman and child as much as he is able. Justice demands that he pays one way or another, not the unborn child.

Vivian Vague
But that's still unfair for the mother. It's an unwanted pregnancy.

Jack Practicvs
What do you mean by 'unwanted'? People who casually sleep around and then get pregnant, their pregnancies are unwanted by them. So what's your point?

Vivian Vague
Well, I mean the victim in this case has done nothing wrong and really doesn't deserve it. It's really unfair for her.

Jack Practicvs
Of course it isn't fair. It's clear this guy abused his freedom and sinned grievously against another. The difference between this and other crimes is that the consequence is not merely material or even bodily harm which is bad in itself but a life, a human being. This new life must be considered as a life.

Vivian Vague
But there must be someway around the problem.

Jack Practicvs
You mean the child.

Vivian Vague
Yes, I mean the child. What if the mother really can't cope, materially, emotionally or psychologically? What if she can't bear to even look at the child let alone raise it as her own?

Jack Practicvs
Would she necessarily be like that? I think it's certainly possible but the baby is not the father. She may well recognize that even if others don't.

Vivian Vague
And what if she doesn't?

Jack Practicvs
I can't argue with that. Quite frankly, I don't blame her but here I must again bring into the argument the social and economic side of things.

Vivian Vague
Go on.

Jack Practicvs
I would say she should be encouraged to carry the child to term. The man who committed the crime and his family should provide for her and the unborn child. Her family should help obviously. Regardless, society at large should help, especially if her family or the offending party are unable to support her, after all, maybe the offender is dead or yet to be arrested. After the child is born, if she really can't raise it for whatever reason, then give it away for adoption. There are plenty of couples who are happy to adopt a child, especially if they can't have their own because of medical problems. But the child should not be harmed, he or she is an innocent and should be given a chance. Even in the case of the child being given up for adoption, the offender and the rest of society should continue to support the child and mother separately as compensation. Of course, the world doesn't allow it.

Vivian Vague
What if a man is raped by a woman and she gets pregnant by him?

Jack Practicvs
Nothing changes. The child is still an innocent. Given the crime committed and especially if she is punished for the crime, I would say she is unfit to be a mother. Give the child to the father and give them both the support they need or have the child adopted by some couple.

Vivian Vague
But as you say, the world as it is now does not support any of that.

Jack Practicvs
Yes and for that I would hold it against those in charge - both past and present - for making the world what it is today. Instead of running the world where human effort and material resources can be distributed such that all can get what they need, the world is enslaved either by communism or the western debt-based system. Both are only the two sides of the same coin. None of this makes abortion right, of course, it just partly shifts the culpability elsewhere.

Vivian Vague
That's true but what you say sounds a bit idealistic. Can we fix all the wrongs?

Jack Practicvs
On the contrary, it is achievable if money were not made the end of the all things. Money is suppose to represent human effort and material wealth and facilitate trade instead of having intrinsic value. It should not dictate what we can or cannot do. We have the capacity to help each other but are limited by our bank accounts such that we struggle to help ourselves. That's just stupid. As for fixing it? Well, given the bad people in charge and that the problems are widespread and systemic, probably no. It would require divine intervention and chastisement on a massive scale to correct the problem. I pray that comes soon. As I said before, the fact that we're having this conversation shows how messed up and over-complicated the world is.

Vivian Vague
So what can we do? I mean, we're not in charge, we're just little people.

Jack Practicvs
Do your best to do the right thing for the right reasons, take it one day at a time and pray and then pray some more.