Jack Practicvs
Hi. What are you reading?

Vivian Vague
Just the newspaper, checking this whole abortion issue.

Jack Practicvs
Oh that.

Vivian Vague
What do you mean by that?

Jack Practicvs
Well, it's all a one big mess.

Vivian Vague
Yes, but it is a complex issue.

Jack Practicvs
No doubt, but they make it more complex than it needs to be though - some on purpose of course, just to get what they want.

Vivian Vague
I suppose. But if we were to start simply, where would we start?

Jack Practicvs
That every human life has intrinsic value, not just the mother but also the baby. In no way am I belittling the value of the mother's life of course.

Vivian Vague
So life begins at conception which is what the Church have always taught. But that sounds so dogmatic. I mean, isn't that assumption, well, presumptuous? Much of the arguments depend on this assumption.

Jack Practicvs
Ok, fine, I don't know when life begins. Those who are happy to abort are acting as if they know life doesn't begin at conception or just don't care. Who is being presumptuous now?

Vivian Vague
Never thought of it that way.

Jack Practicvs
Anyone who cares would have to make the assumption that life begins at conception, that is if they care at all.

Vivian Vague
Don't get me wrong, I disagree with late-term abortions, but if it's early enough shouldn't it allowed? Say for under twelve weeks?

Jack Practicvs
Why set a limit at twelve weeks?

Vivian Vague
I don’t know, it just seems early enough.

Jack Practicvs
You say that because if the limit is set to just before birth or at twenty-eight weeks, you would be emotionally repulsed by it. Why? Because it looks like a human by then? Because it seems like a human being by then whereas it did not at, say, four weeks?

Vivian Vague
Partly, although I admit it's a bit hard to draw the line based on looks. I mean, some people argue about the human fetus looking similar to animal fetuses at the early stages but that's just silly.

Jack Practicvs
Exactly. So what if it looks like something else? It actually isn't. In any case, there's no logical reason for setting time limits.

Vivian Vague
I guess because then one could argue for abortion at anytime up to birth.

Jack Practicvs
And on that note, what's birth? Partly out of the mother's body or entirely outside the mother? Where do we draw the line? Do we allow partial-birth abortions? Why stop at birth?

Vivian Vague
Now you're bringing location into the argument as well.

Jack Practicvs
And that's the next point. Is a human being defined in spatial terms?

Vivian Vague
What do you mean exactly?

Jack Practicvs
As in where one is and what space one is occupying. Before birth, the baby is in the womb. If it's ok to terminate its life there, why is it suddenly not ok when it's outside the mother? Why have the mother's body as the boundary? Why not have the maternity ward or the property boundary of the hospital as the boundary?

Vivian Vague
I suppose we are emotionally more connected to birth, it seems like an event of significance. And logically, once you cross that line, I guess it opens the door to infanticide and homicide in general anytime and anywhere. [Beat] But going back to the time limit aspect: I was going to say that if the baby is at a point where it is capable of living outside the mother - even if it's in ICU - then it's definitely bad to abort then. But if it's before that point, shouldn't abortion be allowed?

Jack Practicvs
I would then ask: how long before that point is abortion acceptable?

Vivian Vague
I see your point.

Jack Practicvs
And again, we have to bring location into the argument. Why is it bad if the baby is aborted at a point in time when it could survive outside?

Vivian Vague
Because it could survive. Why terminate when it could be given birth and allowed to live?

Jack Practicvs
So the location makes no difference in this case then.

Vivian Vague
That's right.

Jack Practicvs
Now if it's before that point in time, the argument is that it's ok to terminate because it can't otherwise live by itself outside the mother, right?

Vivian Vague
Yes.

Jack Practicvs
And the logic in that argument is?

Vivian Vague
I think I get it. So the fact that the child can't survive outside doesn't change the fact that it could continue to live inside.

Jack Practicvs
Exactly, so what if the baby can't survive outside yet? It can't live outside because it's not ready yet. So? That does not justify a termination while it's still in the womb.

Vivian Vague
Because it's living inside right now and needs to be there.

Jack Practicvs
Right.

Vivian Vague
Well, that's all the intellectual arguments I have in mind for now, but the real objections some people have are the real-life examples.

To be continued...